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Post by iskander on Mar 20, 2012 13:10:16 GMT -5
Hi everybody, my name is Juan Pablo Osorio, for a couple of years now I've been leading a Transformers fancomics project at deviantArt: tf-the-lost-seasons.deviantart.com/Some of my collaborators and me are also big DC fans, being an old school fan, I'm quite dissapointed on some of the DCnU developments, from the ugly costume designs to the lack of legacy characters. So, I've been thinking on working on a comic story to give a proper ending to the old DCU, I know most of the series did a sort of ending to their respective stories, but I still have this feeling that the universe as a whole needed an ending story. It doesn't have to be an apocalyptic tale, but something to give closure to the characters, kind of like the epilogue pages of the Johns/Ross Justice Society run that showed us the fate of the Kingdom Come Superman, maybe tying all the little endings into something bigger. It could be quite short, and even have relatively long text chunks with some illustrative images, although I'd prefer a full comic if we are able to find enough artists to work on it. I'm giving this the working name of "Whatever happened to New Earth?" as a homage of course to the last pre-crisis tale by Alan Moore, and to a lesser extent to the post Batman R.I.P. story by Morrison. I have some loose ideas for the story, but to do it right, we need the help of other writers that were up to date with the status of the different comics DC was releasing before Flashpoint. I'm aware that all of you are quite busy with your own series here, but it'd be great if you could help us brainstorm about the story and/or act as consultants on the pre-Flashpoint state of things. If anyone is interested just reply here or send me an email to iskander77@yahoo.com
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Post by David on Mar 25, 2012 15:35:07 GMT -5
This sounds like a great idea, Iskander. Any luck getting this off the ground?
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Post by iskander on Mar 26, 2012 21:51:32 GMT -5
Hi David, I've got a few people interested that replied to my posts either here or at deviantArt. We are starting to work on the plot through email, I wonder if it'd be ok with you guys if we come here and use this thread to work on it.
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Post by David on Mar 27, 2012 5:43:56 GMT -5
Sure, I don't see why not! It'll be fun watching this develop.
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Post by iskander on Mar 27, 2012 9:57:06 GMT -5
OK David, thanks. I've invited a couple of guys here, so I'll summarize my ideas and the ones I've liked the most from the ones I've received, be warned there will be spoilers ahead: - I want to focus in the legacy aspect of the old DCU, and there is no better character for that than the Dick Grayson version of Batman. I want to use too, things that almost made it to the old DCU, like this costume design by Alex Ross: comicbookjesus.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/skmbt_c45110040607521.jpgI've been thinking of a scene to explain the costume change to the Ross version, that would feel right for our story. - I want him to be in the JLA again for this story, and since he disbanded the latest version in the final pages of the comic, there should be a really good reason for him to come back. So I imagine Dick is in the Batcave getting back into his Nightwing suit, he has the black part on already, but not the blue parts, we can show him talking a bit with Alfred about why he's going back to his old persona. - Then, partly in the the shadows, we see a figure with the Superman-S shield, but it's not Superman. It's actually a woman in the Lucy Lane Superwoman suit. Dick assumes she's Lucy, and prepares for battle, but the woman comes completely out of the shadows and identifies herself as Kristin Wells en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristin_Wells (our version of her anyway). As you may know she's a history professor from the future. My idea is her future started to fade (because of Flashpoint), but at the last minute, she grabbed the Superwoman suit (which was actually of magical nature instead of Kryptonian) from a museum, to use it as protection, and time-travelled back to a few days/hours before the event started. - She says he needs the help of Batman and the JLA, Dick grabs and old Batman blue cowl and cape and sets to gather some of his closest allies: Wally West and Donna. - I also want to add Kyle Rayner and Jemm, Son of Saturn into the mix; Jemm was seen in the very last pages of the JLA comic, so he could be conected to Dick, maybe the Flaspoint wave has affected Saturn first or something; Kyle could be added through Jemm. - I wanted to use Tempest and Roy Harper too, but since Garth is dead and Roy's status may have gone beyond redemption at that point. So it was suggested that we use a Ditko character and I thought of adding Prince Gavyn/Will Payton to the mix. I'm not sure if he'd be available, haven't read his last appearance in the Rann/Thannagar: Holly War aftermath stories, but according to wikipedia, he was transformed into a being called Fusion. - We'd end with a new JL made up completely of legacy characters, and it'd be a version that we never got to see in the old DCU. - Now, this is just the start of a story and there are big holes, like why aren't the older big seven our main characters here, where is Bruce, Clark and the rest? - In the end I think we can use Wally to tinker with the origin of the Flashpoint event, leading to the survival of the old DCU,as a parallel version of the new one. Have yet to read the final issues of the pre-Flashpoint Flash comic, but maybe the heroes discover this is all Zoom's fault and it's up to Wally to finally stop him. - Other things I want to at least show, maybe in the ending scenes, is the fate of other heroes, like the Titans, the JSA and many others; and how the existance of the superheroes changed the world for good, we should show how Batman Inc. was a succesful program to protect several parts of the world, and the Superman Dinasty (seen in the Grounded storyline) has made the future safe. - Another suggestion is to set this as an attack from a group of characters that are arch-enemies to our new JL individually, this would include the de-powered Hunter Zolomon, that was last seen talking with Professor Zoom in Flash: Rebirth. Dark Angel cold be included as our anti-Donna, maybe she's even already under attack when Dick contacts her. This would also help explain why we are focussing in these specific heroes instead of the older JL guys. Remember always we don't have an inifite number of pages for this, my experience with fancomics tells me we should try and limit us to a one shot. Of course if we do this succesfully, we can let an open door for more adventures in the now surviving (although parallel) old DCU. Thoughts?
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Post by little konel on Mar 27, 2012 10:35:17 GMT -5
I like some of your ideas and here are some of mine that may or may not be useful:
1) I'd also give Wally a big sacrifice here. He's the poster-boy for the Post-Crisis Universe. He needs to sacrifice himself for the new universe. And Sacrifice, I mean, he shouldn't necessarily die. I could see him and Linda and the kids walking off into the speed force or as adventurers in the multiverse. But they definitely should have a send-off that allows them a way to come back if they need to.
2) The other change would be to reveal that Lois Lane did die in Final Crisis and that the person that has been "Lois" for the last few months has been Clayface (who impersonated Jimmy before the bomb went off in Final Crisis). The cost for Superman for bringing in the NuDCU is that Lois will be alive, but they won't be together.
3) I would make the end include both Hal Jordan and Batman. Have them be the two guys who aren't affected by the change of the nuDCU. Maybe they're needed to restart the universe based on Hal's ability to "wish things into reality." Or better yet, maybe this is Parallax's final gambit. We've all assumed that the story Sinestro and the Guardians were telling us was the truth. We assume that Hal has been reborn. But what if this is still a result of Zero Hour where Parallax created the universe where "Barry and Hal were still alive adventuring." Maybe the whole of the universe since Zero Hour has been Parallax trying to "fix" things by appearing to reform and by reestablishing the Corps and "a Hal Jordan." And it is Batman who figures all of this out. That's why he's been distrustful of Hal.
4) I would find a way for Booster Gold to be the guy who warns everyone. Give him a heroic stand where Rip tells him that all his training has "lead up to this" and we also reveal Booster's Wife and Rip's mother in the story as Kristen Wells from the same century. She's the one who comes back into the past and she's the one who is the hidden member of the Superman dynasty from their era.
5) I would also give the last JLA a hurrah in this Crisis. In the opening salvo, give us an ending where Troia, Green Arrow (Connor Hawke)/Speedy, Jade, Jesse Quick, Batman (Dick Grayson), Tempest, Starman, and Congorilla go out with a blaze of glory, with only Dick Grayson left to tell the tale. And bill it as the "Last JLA/JSA Teamup" with the old JSA guard too.
6) I would also have the destruction of the multiverse where we finally reveal that the World Peace Organization's (from the Nemesis and OMAC series) Black Gambit for the Multiverse where parallel worlds are evacuated into the main DCU, which is how you get Wildstorm and Milestone characters into the nuDCU.
7) We finally get an explanation as to the true reason of Hypertime: Hypertime is sort of like a fragmented hard drive that the Monitor (under the guise of the Monitors) has been defragmenting ever since CoIE. Now that we're reaching the end of the defragmentation process, we now have a rebooted nuDCU.
8) Hunter Zolomon (who was last seen crippled and giving Professor Zoom advice as to how to time travel) and Oblivion (the evil Ion version) who claims that everything after Zero Hour was his doing. That way you have evil version of Wally and an evil version of Kyle. I would also suggest using Deathstroke the Terminator as an opposite for Dick Grayson (someone who Dick actually threatens that he will take him to justice). Dark Angel as the opposite of Donna Troy. And Mikkail possessed by Eclipso to be the opposite of Prince Gavyn.
As for the main trinity (or at least quadtet), you could have the notion that it is happening both in the past and future, but the characters who are within a certain age group have survived and are able to fight. There was this really interesting "main crossover in one issue" that occurred in JLA 80 Page Giant where there was a villian known as the Centurian who could erase people from the timeline with a touch. What if that's Zolomon's "new" power: that he can delete people from this timeline to another one. He's sending them to the hellish Flashpoint universe with a touch.
9) I had in my head the idea that whatever is happening to the world is also happening throughout the timeline. I had in my head the dark Teen Titans who had taken up the mantles of their predecessors and became a very dark version of the Titans (from the most recent Teen Titans series) vs. the Team Titans (the group formed by Danny Chase to combat Lord Chaos and the totalitarian regime of that future). Something about merging the two disparate timelines seems interesting to me. I think you can find their wikipedia pages if you search the names. But there's something just interesting about two titans groups opposing each other in the near future.
10) I also had this idea that the problem that is plaguing New Earth is sort of a retcon wave that is taking key people into the DCnU. So maybe we start with Barry or Iris or Lois or Superman just disappearing and shuffled into the Flashpoint universe (due to Hunter Zolomon zapping them away). Maybe we're even left with a world that has everyone not duplicated in the current DCnU universe (with a new JLA with Starman, Donna Troy and Azrael). This would be sort of the "Left Behind" of the DCU.
11) I would love to see the Secret Six on a Suicide Mission in the story. Give the Secret Six a blaze of glory to go out on instead of just being in jail.
12) If we're looking at a key villain, why not use Parallax/Hal Jordan as the guy who started it all with Hunter Zolomon. Parallax didn't go crazy. He created New Earth and manipulated everything that came after Zero Hour as a way to create the "perfect universe." He created the emotional corps, the black corps, and even his own "I Got Better Hal Jordan." This whole thing has been a ploy to make a new universe where things went "right."
and finally my little insertion:
13) The Last Ride of the Seven Soldiers of Victory = Connor Hawke, Speedy, the Crimson Avenger, The new Shining Knight, The Vigilante (Greg Saunders), Star Girl, and the Bulleteer. With the old Shining Knight making the final sacrifice.
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Post by littlekonel on Mar 27, 2012 10:57:33 GMT -5
Okay, if we're looking at focus, we should center on the Titans and make it a bit more New Titans centric. The New Titans are the ones that were hit the hardest with the DCnU and it would make more sense that the original Titans would be the centerpoint (Dick Grayson, Donna Troy, Wally West, Roy Harper, and Tempest).
So how about this for a mission statement:
"Whatever Happened to the Children of Tomorrow?"
"This is an imaginary story (which may never happen, but then again may) about the children of tomorrow who were legacies and sidekicks of those who came before them and did only good. It tells of their twilight, when the great battles were over and the great miracles long since performed; of how their enemies conspired against them and of that final war that threatened their families and friends; of how the oldest and the bravest would make the ultimate sacrifice; and how finally all the things they loved were taken from them save one. It ends with a hug. It begins in a quiet coastal town, one summer afternoon in the quiet coastal future. Away in the big city, people still sometimes glance up hopefully from the sidewalks, glimpsing a distant speck in the sky... but no: it's only a bird, only a plane. There are no more Titans that walk the earth. This is an imaginary story...
Aren't they all?
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Post by ziggyman on Mar 27, 2012 11:53:16 GMT -5
Could be a full series: Whatever happenend to... the amazing amazon the scarlet speedester the emerald crusader the red big cheese the boy wonder and his friends the world's greatest heroes the world's finest (they already have one each one, so here you can have them toghether) etc.
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Post by iskander on Mar 27, 2012 11:59:58 GMT -5
Could be a full series: Whatever happenend to... the amazing amazon the scarlet speedester the emerald crusader the red big cheese the boy wonder and his friends the world's greatest heroes the world's finest (they already have one each one, so here you can have them toghether) etc. As I've mentioned before, our resources would belimited, I'd love to do a big crossover thing, but, Would we find artists for all of them? I wnat to find pro-level guys to work on this, and it'd be of course for free, so, yeah, we'll be limited because of that.
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Post by iskander on Mar 27, 2012 12:04:03 GMT -5
That said we can always add one pager aftermath stories for a few selected characters, kinda like those short origin back ups that came with the 52 series, or was it with Countdown?
Something else, littlekonel also suggested adding Major Force as our anti-Kyle, and an Eclipsed Mikaal as our anti Starman/Payton/Gavyn, I thin this would fit perfectly with Mikaal's former membership in the league and Payton's death in the old Eclipso: The Darkness Within crossover. Mikaal actually added the last energy needed to put Eclipso back into Bruce Gordon, so maybe actually Eclipso transfered to Mikaal instead of Gordon.
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Post by nekketsu on Mar 27, 2012 12:18:28 GMT -5
I was recruited in Deviantart, what can I do of service?
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Post by iskander on Mar 27, 2012 12:31:54 GMT -5
I was recruited in Deviantart, what can I do of service? Hi there, best thing at this point would be for you to read my first posts on this thread, there is a summary of our ideas so far. Let us know what you think of this, and if you find anything that simply wouldn't work. And if you have any idea of your own, fell free to share it here.
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Post by ziggyman on Mar 27, 2012 13:11:50 GMT -5
Mikaal was supposed to become a champion on Shadow lass world (as seen in robinson's starman series). It would fit. On a second thought, if you are going to talk about legacy, you must give the JSA a more trascendent importance.
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Post by iskander on Mar 27, 2012 13:33:48 GMT -5
Mikaal was supposed to become a champion on Shadow lass world (as seen in robinson's starman series). It would fit. On a second thought, if you are going to talk about legacy, you must give the JSA a more trascendent importance. And maybe Eclipso has something to do with the shadow powers, maybe his darkness is finally defeated and controlled by Mikaal. As for the JSA, I agree, I definitely would like to show Alan Scott back from the dead, we saw him going out in a big green explosion in the final JSA issue; but in the final JLA, that seems to be set months after the final JSA (check on Jesse Quick's pregnant state), Jade mentions she'll be reuniting with Alan and Todd in the Moon, so he should be back in some way. Maybe the whole JSA could have moved to Alan's emerald city in the moon. Of course I don't know if we have enough space for all of this.
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Post by little konel on Mar 27, 2012 15:35:06 GMT -5
- In the end I think we can use Wally to tinker with the origin of the Flashpoint event, leading to the survival of the old DCU,as a parallel version of the new one. Have yet to read the final issues of the pre-Flashpoint Flash comic, but maybe the heroes discover this is all Zoom's fault and it's up to Wally to finally stop him. Just a thought, but what if Wally is able to give him and his friends happy endings in DCnU. 1. Wally is still Iris' nephew, but his father isn't that much of a screw up. Wally never becomes Flash's sidekick, but he ends up bumping into Linda and getting married to her. They have two wonderful kids and they live in Blue Valley. 2. Donna Troy is adopted by the Evans family. She is the oldest and grows up to be a photo journalist who falls in love with Professor Terry Long. They have two children: Robert and Lian (their adopted daughter). 3. Tempest is a California boy, living in San Diego with his wife Tula and their son Ceridian. They like the water and have vague memories of swimming in an open ocean, but they love their life together. 4. Connor Hawke is a monk living in San Francisco who lives with Mira Dearden, a young teenager girl he saved from the streets.
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Post by David on Mar 27, 2012 20:10:46 GMT -5
Some very cool ideas! I stopped reading comics in the last months of the former DCU, so some of this stuff is going over my head (Alan died?!?), but this sounds like something I would read. I especially like the idea of Wally having a spotlight.
For my two cents, I think this should definitely be a one-shot, and I would lean more towards a coda in the tradition of Gaiman's "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?" send-off, rather than any kind of transition-adventure to the nuDCU. Show us all what we loved about this universe and these characters, then lower the curtain.
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Post by joeyjarin on Mar 28, 2012 5:50:56 GMT -5
This all sounds pretty interesting. I might be able to contribute a page or two if this takes off.
Keep up the great work, guys!
~JOe
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Post by nekketsu on Mar 28, 2012 13:05:13 GMT -5
I dont like the Hal Jordan plot-hook about him still being Parallax is too farfetched.
We could use the plot-hook that was left hanging from the Final Crisis and Countdown.
The Fifth World should make an appereance with the New "New" Gods and possibly a Godwave..
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Post by iskander on Mar 28, 2012 13:54:04 GMT -5
Just a thought, but what if Wally is able to give him and his friends happy endings in DCnU. 1. Wally is still Iris' nephew, but his father isn't that much of a screw up. Wally never becomes Flash's sidekick, but he ends up bumping into Linda and getting married to her. They have two wonderful kids and they live in Blue Valley. 2. Donna Troy is adopted by the Evans family. She is the oldest and grows up to be a photo journalist who falls in love with Professor Terry Long. They have two children: Robert and Lian (their adopted daughter). 3. Tempest is a California boy, living in San Diego with his wife Tula and their son Ceridian. They like the water and have vague memories of swimming in an open ocean, but they love their life together. 4. Connor Hawke is a monk living in San Francisco who lives with Mira Dearden, a young teenager girl he saved from the streets. I'd say these are ideas that would fit better in the proper DCnU, I'm sure the real DC comcis will get to something like them at some point.
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Post by iskander on Mar 28, 2012 13:58:07 GMT -5
Some very cool ideas! I stopped reading comics in the last months of the former DCU, so some of this stuff is going over my head (Alan died?!?) And even worse, he got a aweful costume just a few issues before the ending. For my two cents, I think this should definitely be a one-shot, and I would lean more towards a coda in the tradition of Gaiman's "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?" send-off, rather than any kind of transition-adventure to the nuDCU. Show us all what we loved about this universe and these characters, then lower the curtain. I'll try and do something like that, but still making it an adventure and leaving an open door to more, let's say I'm more inspired by "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" than "Caped Crusader", hope you like what we end up doing
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Post by iskander on Mar 28, 2012 13:59:32 GMT -5
This all sounds pretty interesting. I might be able to contribute a page or two if this takes off. Keep up the great work, guys! ~JOe Thanks Joe, counting on you for a couple of pages then
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Post by iskander on Mar 28, 2012 14:04:01 GMT -5
I dont like the Hal Jordan plot-hook about him still being Parallax is too farfetched. We could use the plot-hook that was left hanging from the Final Crisis and Countdown. The Fifth World should make an appereance with the New "New" Gods and possibly a Godwave.. Don't worry, we won't use that Hal plot, it was just a suggested idea. You are right about the Fifth World, it's just that I'm not sure what was the status of the "new" New Gods after Final Crisis, to tell you the truth I think that story was a mess, well intentioned, but a mess anyway. Could you give us a short summary of what was the final state of the Fifth Worlders?
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Post by iskander on Mar 28, 2012 20:22:06 GMT -5
Guys, ziggyman suggested me some new ideas, I'm going to work them into a first draft for the initial part of the script and post it here, hopefully soon. But keep coming with ideas, we'll be adding Booster Gold to this, but be warned, this isn't going to end well for him; we'll need some other time travelling characters, that we can, well... kill off, so if you think of any, just let me know.
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Post by ziggyman on Mar 28, 2012 22:19:47 GMT -5
The linear men, Time trapper, rip hunter, chronos, per degaton, lord of time, Xotar, don't remember anymore. Wait, the robotic Hourman too.
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Post by nekketsu on Mar 29, 2012 13:18:33 GMT -5
There wasnt a final state, as the Fourth world died to let the Fifth world appear (that never happened) The whole Death of the New Gods series was built towards that but nothing happened, the sweep it under the rug and kept the New Gods, at least some of them, in Final Crisis...
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Post by iskander on Mar 29, 2012 13:35:24 GMT -5
There wasnt a final state, as the Fourth world died to let the Fifth world appear (that never happened) The whole Death of the New Gods series was built towards that but nothing happened, the sweep it under the rug and kept the New Gods, at least some of them, in Final Crisis... Then we can make with them whatever we want, I've read somewhere that the Super Young Team is supposed to be the Fifth World version of the Forever People, but nothing else. We could at least show them in a cameo, and could give them updated designs, like that shiny white Metron we saw in Final Crisis. And if this is an important event, Metron should show up. Maybe we could imply that our version of the surviving "old" DCU, after our story will include the Fifth Worl concept.
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Post by ziggyman on Mar 29, 2012 14:50:58 GMT -5
I would not overcomplicate the story. Remember, all of the "Whatever happened", was more character driven and much of the concepts just appeared in just one panel. You must give it the feeling of "last adventure", epilogue. Don't try to explain everything.
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Post by iskander on Mar 29, 2012 18:06:21 GMT -5
I would not overcomplicate the story. Remember, all of the "Whatever happened", was more character driven and much of the concepts just appeared in just one panel. You must give it the feeling of "last adventure", epilogue. Don't try to explain everything. Yeah, don't wory, I won't make them an important plot point or anything, but we could see them in one of the final panels, the sole image of the New Gods in updated designs would imply they are changed but still are out there in some place.
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Post by littlekonel on Mar 29, 2012 19:49:39 GMT -5
[/quote]
I'd say these are ideas that would fit better in the proper DCnU, I'm sure the real DC comcis will get to something like them at some point.[/quote]
The key point would be that this would be their "reward." Instead of dying or going into non-existence, they're allowed to continue but without being superheroes. They're just people who are living their lives in DCnU. They were never superheroes and don't remember that they were superheroes.
I can imagine Wally walking home from work, slightly late, and accidentally catching Dick Grayson in Hally's Circus in an advertisement. For a half second, Wally remembers his times as a Titan flooding back to him and the friends he once fought beside. But that memory is fleeting and then Linda calls him to tell him that Jai got straight As this semester and he forgets...
He's happy with his life and he lives happily ever after with Linda and the kids.
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Susan Hillwig
Staff
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.
Posts: 1,612
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Post by Susan Hillwig on Mar 29, 2012 19:58:14 GMT -5
I love this concept you guys have going. Had DC done something like this instead of the "backdoor sneak" that was Flashpoint, myself and many others may not have been so upset with this whole DCNu thing. If you're gonna end the universe, then give it a proper end, just like you did with CoIE. Looking forward to the results!
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